Guildultery

In most games, having a single character be a member of more than one guild is currently not only impossible, but probably a little distasteful to many of the players. Systems support for multiple single-char membership aside, the idea of multiple allegiances strikes folks as, at worst, rather treacherous, and at best somewhat uncommitted. If people are a little unsure about the idea of multiple out-of-game guild/tribe/network memberships, they’re even less sure about the concept in-game. (Let’s assume one-char/many-guilds is implementable — I’m not interested in discussing why it can’t be done because it’s not available, especially since it already is available in some games, such as A Tale In The Desert. It’s not MMO-coding science-fiction.)

Those aren’t entirely unjustified doubts.  If you could join multiple guilds you could steal from one to give to the other, or be unable to fulfil your commitments to one because of stuff you said you’d do for the other. But that’s a problem guilds face now and always have, even in the one-character/one-guild model; maybe we just think it makes it easier if you limit how many guild memberships a single character can have, because we’re used to the concept and because it seems simpler. After all, if I have Fred in MegaGuild and my alt Bob in MyOwnGuild, I can steal from MegaGuild just as easily as if Fred were in both. The only way to prevent that is to prevent trading between characters, and that’s not going to happen. Even in Asheron’s Call, where there was no mail system, you could either just drop stuff on the ground and log over (hopefully before it got deleted by the sweeper-mechanism), dump it in your house chest (no such worries) or pass it to a third party to hold while you do the char-swapping. Where there’s a will in MMOs, there’s almost always a way; in other words, if someone is a thief they’ll be a thief no matter how many or how few guilds they can join.

As for commitment issues: again, those aren’t new, and they’ll exist either way. I was going to say we older gamers have more calls on our time, but that’s neither fair nor true — even younger people have commitments, be it only to get to the dinner table before Mum blows a gasket; more seriously there’s school, homework, friends, and later on school, homework, work, friends, sick or not sick kids, pets… and other games. So again, whether I’m not as available as I should be because I’m nursing Jane Jr. through a cold or because I’m off doing stuff with another guild — is there really a difference?

Yeah, there is, but I think it’s more of a nuance than a real chasm. Just like with theft, being committed to one’s allegiance(s) isn’t something we generally turn off and on. People just tend to be more understanding of sick kids than they are of wanting to do stuff with another group in the same game, though the end result (player not available) is the same.

Thinking about it though, the idea that Fred might say “Sorry, I’m not going to do XYZ with you guys tonight but rather ABC with these guys tonight” does feel a little off. What, aren’t we good enough for you? Rationally though, if Fred isn’t blowing off any previously-made commitments to us for that evening, and if Fred is generally reliable about doing what he says he’ll do when he says he’ll do it, does it matter? If Fred chose to bimble about on his own all evening, nobody would care (well some might, but that’s another topic). If Fred chooses to tell us he’s doing stuff with someone else though, suddenly it’s guildultery and we get a little pissy.

I’m not arguing that unreliable people should be given free passes — I’m talking about honest, non-thieving, mostly reliable people like… well, like most of us. Part of the problem with multiple allegiances and groupings and friendships is how we react to them and not necessarily how much trouble they really cause.

For the most part, guilds aren’t really in competition with each other (in the MMOs I play, anyway — enlighten me if there are other examples). Even where there are guild leveling type systems, raising guild A has no impact whatsoever on guild B’s leveling, so it’s not like being in more than one would actively harm the others. There aren’t many infractions you could commit with a one-char/multi-guild system that you can’t already commit with the one-char/one-guild model we have now, so what, exactly, would it hurt if we could join more than one in-game group at a time with any given character?

Even in a game where you really could damage one guild through the actions of another (competitive land-grabbing, limited guild-available resources, etc — I’m thinking Shadowbane-type games?) you could probably still work multiple guild support, just with tighter rules — for instance, a character can only join another guild that’s in the same faction / kingdom / guild-alliance / whatever. I do think the benefits outweigh the possible risks, since we already face those risks using the current system.

The main benefit of multi-guilding is that we could create tighter, more focused interest-oriented guilds, or even time-limited guilds with specific aims like event-organising or whatnot. We could have a normal “we’re one big family” guild but also a “crafters” sub-guild, or even a “specific-craft” subguild. A character could be a member of a fighting-oriented guild and a member of a crafting or mercantile guild, or a member of a crafting guild and a mercantile guild… and so on. My impression is that resistence to that concept is more a matter of subjective discomfort (a mental “he likes them more than us!” reaction) than of objective difficulties, certainly not difficulties that don’t already exist.

Interestingly, one reason MMO designers might resist the idea is that it would give single characters access to a lot more storage space. One vault per guild, char is in four guilds (if the game allows it), so suddenly that char has access to four times as much vault space. As far as I’m concerned, however, the whole inventory management so-called minigame is a way to limit how much inventory has to be tracked per character — there are very few players I know who feel bag management is fun, much less a thrilling mini-game (or subgame or whatever they’re called). It’s only called a feature to make it palatable to players, and is just as much of a con as saying that slow travel shows how big the world is. (Yes, faster travel does tend to make the world feel smaller, but you’re slowing me down because you don’t want me going through stuff too fast, not because you care about me appreciating the landscape — let’s not be disingenuous.) So that space issue is really only an issue if you want to limit how much people own; and while that is most certainly based on data-storage requirements, you’ve got to wonder how valid that is since after all, most everything you can own is probably not much more than a database ID reference, and disk space isn’t exactly expensive these days, even on a grand scale. (Yeah, there’s more to it than that, but not that much, is there? If there is… again, enlighten me.)

(Some games are different — SWG for instance, where resources change all the time, are always unique, and where most items have their own unique ID… and yet SWG offers vastly more storage than your average fantasy MMO. We don’t pretend to carry all our belongings on our backs like fantasy heroes anymore, so let’s stop pretending we need such an artificially low limit on what we own, okay? /slight tangent off)

While reviewing this, it occurs to me that *I* am making a slew of assumptions myself when discussing guilds and multi-guild memberships. What a guild provides, tangibly, is what? These days the main guild perks are vault space, a name tag, and a guild channel, all of which could be accessible in games through other means. I’m not sure it’s worth making those benefits optional since they seem pretty central to the general idea of “a group of people doing stuff together,” but if there were a longer list of benefits (teleporting to a central location, access to certain areas, goodies, skills/spells, and so on) maybe an à la carte guild-options system might be useful.

So, guildultery — where do you stand? Monogamy, free love, or somewhere in between?

Actually, while we’re here, what would the opposite system be like? One account, ONE guild membership — as in, all your alts can join a guild, but they must all join the same guild if they join one at all. Would there be benefits to a system like that?

44 responses to “Guildultery

  1. Well, I have to argue…the core of every guild is pretty much the same….even if the guild is a social one, like say the guild I’m currently in, CoWs represent, you try to play together, keep the characters within the same levels so you can group properly and try to progress the characters upward in levels even if your at a slower pace than others, your still moving upward…I mean if your not at least trying to level your character, why are you even playing an MMO in the first place? And why would you want to be a member of more than one guild as well if your not advancing the character to some degree. See this all feeds back into the same arguement.

    I mean, if there is another purpose for a guild or playing a character to begin with, I’m all for it, hearing about it. Even if all your doing is crafting, at some point you have to level the character to obtain specific items needed to craft. You join a guild or a group of people to do things together and social, otherwise why be in a guild?

    If your character is in a second guild, they will probably want to do the same thing, and if the schedules are different then, you might out level the people in Guild A while playing with people in Guild B.

    Guilds are run by people and people as nature would have it, tend to use other people, it’s the very nature of the social beast.

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  2. I disagree quite a lot with your assessment of what a guild is for and why we all play games, Oakstout. In many cases, I play games to craft — in SWG I played to craft, to build a business, to provide stuff others might want or need, and levelling was (and is) an entirely secondary concern.

    So no, I don’t agree that “advancement” is the only aim of a game and the only aim of a guild.

    I join guilds primarily for the social aspect and for the social tools it provides. Levelling is, to me, extremely secondary.

    If I were in a — for argument’s sake — levelling guild and in a crafting guild at the same time with the same character, I really don’t see how anyone could object to my spending any of the time I haven’t formally committed to one or the other. My guild does NOT have a 100% call on my time — no guild does. What it *does* have a right to expect is for me to uphold its values, to consider its needs as well as mine, and to do what I say I’m going to do. Outside of that, if I choose to do stuff with guildies or with friends who aren’t guildies (for instance, guildies in guild2, in the multi-guild example), that’s nobody’s business.

    The day a guild tries to tell me when to log on, what to do when I log on, and who to play with is the day I quit. Then again, I don’t join those guilds in the first place.

    A guild is NOT a marriage, so maybe Tesh was right in criticising the title. However, many people do react as though a guild is a marriage and even looking at non-guildies or other guilds is a sign of high treason.

    We’re not talking raiding guilds here, we’re talking social constructs. And really, if I want to be part of two garage bands or two church groups, that’s okay too as long as I meet the commitments I make. Meeting one’s commitments is just a part of being a responsible human being — beyond that, I really think the arguments against multi-guilding are some sort of weird proto-jealousy.

    Not ranting at you Oak — actually it’s good you’re presenting another view 😀

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  3. I have to say, my argument has been based on the current MMO that I am playing. Other MMO’s might be able to accommodate the one toon joining two or more guild situation more effectively. Vanguard and EQ2 are heavy into crafting, so being a part of a crafting guild only (guild A) and a raiding only guild (Guild B) wouldn’t conflict with each other.

    But in a game like WoW, where a majority of the guilds have the same goals, mainly leveling up characters and reaching end game together, then being a member of two or more guilds wouldn’t work. I would say there definitely would be a conflict of loyalties. I even know some guilds that won’t let you have multiple toons in other guilds because they feel it detracts from their guilds goals if your not playing with them. Again, I agree with the statement that, “if your guild is using you, there’s something out of whack,”.

    But sadly, this is more the norm than the exception. Would I like to see a system where you could be in more than one guild…sure…that would be great. Will it work currently with most MMO’s having goals that create competition between guilds to be the first to reach end game status and get the great gear…NO! But as Ysh is fond of saying, you don’t have to join a guild for the sole reason to level and reach end game, you can do it just be social, as long as you find a guild willing to let you be the exception rather than the rule. lol

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  4. Also Ysh, you used the statement:

    “If I were in a — for argument’s sake — levelling guild and in a crafting guild at the same time with the same character, I really don’t see how anyone could object to my spending any of the time I haven’t formally committed to one or the other.”

    and I agree with it, mainly because you would be in a guild that had separate goals. But there might be an issue if you joined two guilds with the same end goal, especially if being good at say “Crafting” helped advance the guild in some way, like it does in EQ2..then your time would be valuable to both guilds and splitting that time so your helpful to both might be hard, but not impossible.

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  6. @Oakstout, here’s some examples of kinds of guilds you might belong to:

    1) A Guild. Just a typical guild, full of people focused on leveling their characters and getting through content.
    2) An RP Guild: Members here are working together to create and act out an elaborate RP storyline. Levels are totally irrelevant to them. The only gear they need is social clothing.
    3) A Music Guild: Members here are part of a band that puts on concerts. Probably only found in LOTRO since afaik it’s the only MMO with a system that allows for playing music. (Some conflict potential with the RP Guild here.)
    4) A PvP Guild. Maybe you’re in a big generic guild full of folks you get along well with, but that isn’t into PvP. So you join a pure PvP Guild, and the members of this Guild do nothing but team up together to do PvP 2 nights/week.
    5) A Crafting Guild. The folks in this Guild are interested in coordinating their various craft skills in order to create top-end gear.

    I’ll grant you that there’s no (or at least, very little) reason to have a character in two leveling guilds at the same time, though.

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  7. I’m all for “free love” in the guild scene.

    I see guilds as a tool to help me find other players to play with. The more guilds I can be a member of, the more people I can play with.

    Yes, there will be people who join a large number of guilds and are not very active in many of them. There will also be hardcore dedicated players who are only in a couple of guilds and are very active, obeying guild schedules and such. Either approach is fine since it lets the individual player play the way they want to play.

    Compare this to the current guild system. Say I want to experience the raiding content in WoW, I have to join a raiding guild, but they will have a pre-set schedule and agenda that will either be too demanding for me, or not be demanding enough, depending upon how ‘hardcore’ I am. Either way leads to nerd-rage (either mine or the guild’s).

    In a multiple guild system, there is a much vaster resource of players to draw from, which will lessen the nerd-rage on both counts.

    People are still free to form their ultra-hardcore exclusive clique guilds and bitch about who hasn’t logged on for a whole 12 hours. The rest of us won’t care that we can’t get into such a guild, since we’ll be off doing whatever the hell it is we want to do with our $14.95 a month anyway. The clique guild shouldn’t care because clearly we were not hardcore enough and would not have adhered to their raid schedule anyway.

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  8. @Tesh — FF XI might have a music system… I played that one so long ago and for such a short period that my memory of it is all but wiped.

    I came back with an example for Oakstout that is a very feasible situation.

    So say a player is in a Guild, and really likes the players and enjoys doing PvE content with them. But one day he goes and tries PvP and decides he likes it. Not so much that he wants to focus exclusively on it, but he’d like to do more of it. He communicates his enjoyment of PvP to the guild, but no one else is all that interested in it.

    The way things are, that player has the choice of a) giving up on PvP, b) doing PvP with random players, or c) quitting the guild he enjoys to go find a PvP guild.

    Under a multi-guild system, he could *start* a PvP guild, and find people just like him: people who are in PvE-oriented guilds that they really enjoy, but who would like to do some PvP now and then with a regular group. No one has to leave their “home” guild, and everyone has their needs met.

    If the argument is that the player is being disloyal to his guild for spending some time PvPing with his new secondary guild, well, wouldn’t the same thing apply if he was PvPing with random people?

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  10. “If the argument is that the player is being disloyal to his guild for spending some time PvPing with his new secondary guild, well, wouldn’t the same thing apply if he was PvPing with random people?”

    The answer is yes, but only if they knew your were on line doing that and not hanging out with them doing it. That is why I always have a toon that no one knows about so I can be by myself without a lot of people bothering me…when I’m feeling anti-social. lol

    Man, I just can’t stop responding to this subject…it has me reeling still. lol

    Thanks YSH…I have to say, this has been one of my more enjoyable topics on any blog, including my own. lol

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