Take me to the river

Here’s another slippery concept: immersion.

It’s frequently flung around as both an excuse (“this will add immersion!”) and an insult (“it’s ruining my immersion!”) but as far as I can tell this is, for the most part, another subjective issue. One man’s immersion is another man’s bucket of cold water — take, for instance, the travel we were discussing the other day. I remember this was a raging debate on the Vanguard beta forums, where one side claimed slow travel was essential to immersion and the other side claimed that slow travel destroyed their immersion, because getting bored means you get disengaged from the game. You can’t get less immersed than not logged in.

You, dear reader, aren’t the usual forum fodder so I probably don’t need to specify this, but I will anyway: immersion does not equal suspension of disbelief (or sub-creation, depending which theory you want to use*). It’s pretty much understood by most games, online or otherwise, that you need an internally coherent environment just as you do in fiction; if you build a medieval-themed world and stick giant advertising billboards along the dirt roads, that’s not merely immersion-breaking, it’s not internally coherent. I’m also not going to deal with the common forum-troll argument that you can’t have coherence or immersion in a game because you’re doing stuff that isn’t possible in real life. That’s fallacious.

There’s still plenty to debate, regardless. To me, names floating above PC and NPC heads in game are immersion-breaking, in the sense that they make me more aware that I’m just playing a game, not travelling around in a world. At a basic level I find them visually distracting, possibly because I started playing MMOs in a game that didn’t have them (Asheron’s Call), whereas most of the people I know who started playing in EQ, for instance, aren’t bothered by that at all; in fact, some of them are far more bothered by not seeing names where they expect them. Some people are irked every time a rabbit drops a 6-foot sword as loot, but at worst it just amuses me a little, because to me it’s just one of those things you have to accept if you’re playing a loot-driven game; something, after all, has to drop that phat stuff you’re expecting to get. (Tabletop games weren’t all that different, it’s just far more obvious in online games. Anyway, this isn’t a loot post.)

Is the concept of immersion itself perhaps increasingly obsolete? Or is it just our communal definition of it, which has to be so loose now to fit all our different views that it may not really fit anything at all anymore? When we say “immersion” now, are we simply talking about “pleasure”? A beautiful landscape is immersive, certainly, but to me it’s primarily aesthetic — I found the LOTRO and EVE land/space-scapes stunning but the games themselves didn’t hold me for various other reasons.

I think this is what bothers me about “immersion” being used as an argument. It gets flung around to justify one point of view (or its opposite), but when it comes to the crunch, how essential is it to MMOs? Very? A little? Not at all? And if our definitions are so varied as to occasionally be diametrically opposed, how can “immersion” be used as any kind of argument? If it’s elastic enough to fit both sides of a debate, what’s it adding to that debate?

Yes, I’m being — or trying to be — thought-provoking: these aren’t necessarily all my own views. I believe immersion is essential, even if it’s subjective and fluid, because it affects our enjoyment of a game and thus ultimately probably affects a game’s bottom line. But if it’s so hard to pin down, how can game designers possibly take it into account other than to do what they find immersive and hope others will experience the same?

Immersion enhances a game but can’t make a game, especially not an online game. In tabletop games the environment is far more closely-controlled and the human actors are far less numerous, so consensus-immersion is much easier to achieve and maintain. In an online game, especially in these days where players aren’t just ex-tabletop geeks anymore but also grannies, kids, and everyone in between, you can’t control your experience as finely. Which almost inevitably implies that something or someone, somewhere, is going to break your immersion.

I have a suspicion that if a given person’s immersion is broken too often, that person will stop playing whatever game it is. But what constitutes a break and how many times it has to happen before someone is driven away is so individual, it has to be almost impossible to design for. It’s also not something you hear very often when people stop playing a game — “I stopped because I didn’t feel immersed anymore” — but that doesn’t mean it might not, in aggregate, be quite an important reason.

Hrmph. I was trying to get to a point, but I’m not sure I have one. Immersion is a subject that fascinates me because it deals with how people approach games, and I’m interested in that kind of thing; but the more I write, the more I meander and the less I’m sure there is a definitive point to me made. We can, maybe, define immersion by what it isn’t, in the sense that it might well be easier to reach a consensus on that than on what constitutes positive immersion. Beyond that though, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that if you ask 5 gamers about immersion you’ll get 6 different answers. So what’s your take?

Lastly — I stayed away from the wiki page on immersion but here it is, for completeness. Interestingly enough, it’s not particularly definite on the subject either.

– – –

* Very tangential, even for me, hence the *. In the light of the recent Wikipedia/Threshold/MUD conflagration, I find myself twitching a little every time I give a wikipedia reference link. Seems like every page I hit has a shrill little box somewhere in the article demanding more citations, more references, more something-or-other, and I find myself wondering — are they trying to be a real reference source, or is this just more jockeying in the background from petty people who are using what should be a great starting research resource as their own personal power-trip? It disturbs me that what should be a collaborative project with genuine usefulness should be thus tainted. But then, I’ve always been idealistic and somewhat naive. Bah humbug.

50 responses to “Take me to the river

  1. Wow, lots of interesting ideas here!

    The current crop of MMOs certainly are ‘safe’; they have low penalties for failure and make it difficult for people to interact in ways that could curtail someone else’s progress. I can get killed in PvP, but all my armor and items will remain mine. All I really suffer is ‘use’ damage on my weapons, I don’t even get death penalty damage like I do in an instance.

    As for horses disappearing into a player’s bags, I guess they have to draw the line somewhere. If horses stick around, can they be stolen or killed? More recent MMOs would probably have them standing around and unkillable / unusable by anyone besides the owner which can also be immersion-breaking. Also, if they can be killed, how much work goes into getting them in the first place. If horses are a dime a dozen, it would be a minor inconvenience to have one killed. If it takes months and months worth of effort to get one, it could really suck to have one die.

    Personally, I am a fan of things like not losing levels at death (or some penalties like CoH used to have where you had to pay back penalty XP). Dying and then rezzing in a game is an unrealistic occurance anyway.

    @Ysh: I like the term ‘engrossed.’ If I can lose myself in what I’m doing, with nothing too major to burst my bubble, then I’m happy. Rabbits dropping two-handed weapons doesn’t really ruin anything for me (in fact, I’d probably laugh). As long as killing the rabbit wasn’t dull in the first place. (Don’t worry, Ysh. I only kill evil rabbits.) 🙂

    @Tesh: I wrote a piece a while back about fantasy and sci fi. I suspect that it’s the fact that we deal so much with technology in our daily lives that makes fantasy desirable for many players. Technology breaks. Technology is hard to understand. Magic (fantasy) doesn’t break and understanding isn’t usually required for it to work. It just does. I suspect that most people enjoy fantasy worlds for immersion over sci fi because sci fi is just an amplification of that with which they already have experience.

    I have heard that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But, calling it ‘technology’ in the first place allows players to extrapolate between it and stuff they already know to be flawed, prone to user error and likely to require maintenance – in other words: not magic.

    Like

  2. Old-school SWG kept your vehicles where you left them. I forget if they did that to the creature mounts or not. On the one hand, yes it’s realistic and did have a certain degree of overall coolness. On the other, you had to remember where you left it. For explorers with attention spans measuring in nanoseconds like myself, finding my speeder often became more frustrating than those “find [insert NPC/item/location here] with no directions” quests we complain about.

    On a more technical level I’m sure it becomes difficult for the servers and databases to keep track of player-placed items in the world. For players, it became difficult when many people put their speeders in one location. Trying to click your own became a chore of hunting that single free pixel that would register and let the player interact. How to fix that? In our fantasy games I suppose each town could have a stable post to tie your horse to. Then you have hundreds of horses tied to a single stable creating lag and making it impossible to click your horse. So the stable will only show *your* horse which not only removes the extra “massively multiplayer” ambiance but now only serves as an inconvenience if you’re forced to go to the stable every time you want to mount or dismount in a town. After a short while that feeling of inconvenience could quickly turn to a feeling of punishment.

    Caring for your mount could be viewed the same. If it was a drawn-out minigame it could be viewed as a pointless time sink, perhaps to the point of players avoiding mounts or worse, avoiding your game. Turning it into a simple “pay the upkeep for your mount” like we have for player housing turns a mount into Yet Another Money Sink. Personally before adding new realisms to mounts I’d rather get rid of the casting bar. Why do I have to wait 5 seconds, standing still, to “summon” my mount from my pocket yet I can dismiss it instantly?

    At the end of the we’re playing GAMES not virtual world simulators. Turn the attention to extraneous features back to your character. Do we want to be forced to eat, drink and sleep? If we eat and drink, we also need to urinate and defecate but I can’t say I’ve ever read a call to implement that particular bit of realism in a game… What if we had to walk most of the time, and running would tire us? What if we only had X energy during the day and every hour we “stayed awake” beyond that we incurred an increasing debuff until we finally slept? How do we handle sleeping? This isn’t a single-player game like GTA4 where sleeping means a quick loading screen as time fast-forwards and I keep playing. In a persistent game I can’t play that character for X hours while it’s sleeping. Won’t that make us happy? Is sleep tied to the game’s day-night cycle? For example, if “daytime” in LOTRO is roughly 1.5 hours do I get the debuff as soon as it becomes night? Is my character “awake” during daytime when I’m not logged in so if I login and it happens to be night it already has the fatigued debuff?

    Should the NPCs in these fantasy towns close up shop and go to bed? I’d certainly think those quest-giving NPC’s would tire of standing in place holding those golden icons over their heads, so they’d also be sleeping. Now not only are our nocturnal adventurers tired and debuffed but they’ve suffered a significant reduction of content as well until the townsfolk wake up again.

    Death penalties. I never did UO or EQ so every time I used to read posts by “those people” who desire harsh penalties and making death something to fear rather than the mild inconvenience it usually is I would wonder what world those sadomasochists live in and what they’ve been smoking. Then I experienced a degree of it in DDO and Vanguard last year. At the time each had pretty nasty XP penalties upon death. I won’t say it made the games constantly exciting but yeah, when you notice your health bar going down and you know what it means if you don’t survive, you certainly get more of an adrenaline kick. DDO has since patched out the XP penalty altogether. I play so infrequently that I usually forget and I get all excited and try not to die then when I do it’s nothing short of anticlimactic when I’m brought back to the present game where death has little meaning again. Vanguard still has an XP penalty but it’s less than it used to be, plus Vanguard is still an open world DikuMMO with respawning mobs so regaining the XP doesn’t take as long as it did to regain XP in DDO. Those two games at least gave me somewhat of an insight to those grizzled old sadomasochist’s perspective but unlike them I am not demanding that every game be harsh and punish the players. In those two games the death penalty felt like it fit, and while it’s been lessened in Vanguard that hurt less than in DDO where it’s outright removed. The advantage is now characters can actually level faster in DDO so you don’t feel like you’re beating your head against a wall and being set back rather than progressing. The disadvantage is that dying has less of an impact upon the individual player.

    I think that’s a key element right there. We’re still a very “me” oriented society. I want the loot. I want the titles. I want the fun and excitement. I want, I want, I want! Gimme, Gimme, Gimme! Now, Now, Now!

    Let’s compare DDO to Left 4 Dead, though. Both are essential forced-grouping cooperative games. Dying in L4D means you are out of the game for a few minutes and your three remaining players are that much more in jeopardy because either the four of you fight as one unit or your brains become hors d’oeuvres for the zombie horde. The same *should* be the same in DDO because the adventure is instanced for your group so losing a man lessens the group’s chance of success. Yet because it’s also an RPG, players also want to see their own advancement and get their own XP, gold, loot, etc. either in synchronicity with the group or not.

    How’s that for a tangent? And I’m not even sure I made a point… /sigh

    Like

  3. @Scott: Maybe not a point many interesting ideas! 🙂 I still play Elder Scrolls: Oblivion once in a while. In that game, NPCs do disappear into their homes at night, shops close, etc. Oblivion allows both wait states and a sleep state to advance the clock until NPCs are available. While that would be impractical in MMOs, they could implement something where the quest giver isn’t as important as the quest giver location. So if you had a quest to get something for the blacksmith and you arrive to find him out to lunch, you could also do your turn-in to the blacksmith’s assistant instead. (That’s not how it works in Oblivion – you’d have to find the Blacksmith and where he had lunch or wait until he comes back.)

    Then again, with enough content for day and night cycles, why not make it so you’d have to wait until shops open to turn in “day time” quests?

    With regard to the horses, it would be neat to add a whistle command so if it’s within x-hundred feet, it will come to you. As you say, though, there are limits to how much realism we actually need and realism has some consequences in games which we may not like (ex: crowding in parking areas, etc). Having our characters take bathroom breaks is probably not a good gaming mechanic – at least there’s better places to put dev emphasis. (You forget to put the seat down. -10 significant other faction. Report to doghouse immediately.) Much of immersion is subjective: people allow their own immersion to get broken; games can only assist or hinder it.

    Like

  4. @Scott

    I for one would *love* to see more meaningful day/night cycles and NPCs that aren’t always standing in the same place. You could design around the inconvenience factor somewhat by having the NPCs have a ‘drop box’ that you could turn quests into or something, but think about having areas of a city that are ok to be in during the day, but dangerous at night, as the pickpockets and cutthroats come out.

    And, to point out the obvious, plenty of games *do* include food and drink.

    “Caring for your mount could be viewed the same. If it was a drawn-out minigame it could be viewed as a pointless time sink, perhaps to the point of players avoiding mounts or worse, avoiding your game.”

    This applies to everything we do in games. Why isn’t combat a 1-click process? Why is it a drawn-out mini game? Well, because its a fun drawn-out mini game. Why couldn’t caring for your mount also be a fun drawn-out mini-game? If you just see a mount as a speed-buff then I can understand why that has no appeal, but then…why have a mount at all? Why not just make it a speed buff and be done with it? I think there’s room for both kinds of games.

    Crafting is a good example of this. In some games, crafting is a mini-game while in others, it’s basically a 1-click process. Depending on our likes and dislikes we all tend to gravitate towards one kind of system over the other.

    The distinction between “Game” and “Virtual World” is a good one, though, but I don’t think its a binary choice. I think a given product falls somewhere on a scale between the two. Some of us prefer products that are closer to Virtual World, and some prefer products that are more pure game. Clearly, Scott, you’re closer to the game end of the scale.

    I like both; UO was very close to Virtual World and it was a blast, but then I had an awful lot of fun in the very Game-like WoW for a good long time, too. Generally speaking though, I lean toward Virtual Worlds.

    Although I’d put something like Second Life or There in a different kind of Virtual World class…and those I don’t like much at all.

    Like

  5. Second Life is *only* a Virtual World, though. It’s not a game at all.

    I’d have to say (ask me in ten minutes and I might give a different answer) that right now my stance on what I want is a fun *game* but with enough different virtual world options to allow me to immerse myself in it.

    SWG did the best job of it in my opinion, with the player cities, the non-combat professions, the emphasis on player-crafted items and economy (and you could buy the same item from two different players and have different stats depending on the crafter’s abilities and how they chose to experiment, unlike post-WoW games where [Super Duper Sword of Swankiness] is always the same regardless who makes it) but it was clearly lacking in the fully fleshed-out and fun game department.

    LOTRO has it to a degree but it’s much less social “in person” than SWG was. Plenty of chat going on but not so much in terms of gathering together in public like we did in the cantinas. We have housing neighborhoods but no incentive to actually do anything “virtual worldy” with them. They’re extra storage and discounted armour repairs.

    Give me a FUN GAME in an Earthrise/Darkfall sandboxy virtual world with SWG social elements to provide extra (and meaningful) means to live vicariously through my character with LOTRO-quality story-telling and WoW-quality character control and responsiveness. Give me all that and let me choose with each session — with each moment — how I want to play and to what degree I choose to immerse myself.

    As for exploring day/night, LOTRO does that with a handful of night-only quests and you should listen to all the whining… And, at most, you’ll need to wait 1.5 hours for night. It’s not like the game has a lack of other quests that would take up that time. But they have THAT quest and they want to do it NOW NOW NOW and they’re being punished wah wah QQ ZOMG Turbine is the Devil!

    Like

  6. @Scott – Caring for your mount could be viewed the same. If it was a drawn-out minigame it could be viewed as a pointless time sink, perhaps to the point of players avoiding mounts

    And over 70 million Tamagotchis say perhaps not. It does entirely depend on the implementation and whether it clicks with the general gaming populace. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to judge, but it’s evidently possible.

    Like

  7. But Tamagotchi isn’t a mini-game, it’s the entire game. In our RPGs combat is the entire game and they add a crafting mini-game off to the side.

    Like

  8. Excellent post. MMO wise I find that LOTRO is the only game that I have had a real feeling of immersion, but for me single player rpg’s are what I find to be the most immersive.

    Like

  9. For me, immersion is simply a feeling that I’m invested in the game’s world.

    My first serious MMO was EQ’s Tallon Zek server – the horribly broken Team PvP ruleset that Brad McQuaid came up with just before he left Verant/SOE.

    What a cess-pit that place was. And, yes… we liked it that way. 😉

    There was nothing about that game’s design that was even remotely “immersive” – as a modern gamer would see it. But in an environment where a single “experience death” could set someone back a solid week, connecting with guild and team was serious business. Even the cultivation of “good” enemies was important. All one had in that world was his reputation – and that reputation made the difference between being allowed to “loot and scoot” or being “exp-killed” and “corpse camped”.

    We made the rules. We punished those that broke ’em.

    We were “invested” in that world. There was a lot of RP (my old guild, Shadoewatch, insisted on it), but it was the feeling that it was “our” world that clinched it for me.

    Of course, ultimately it wasn’t our world…

    Like

  10. @Scott – But Tamagotchi isn’t a mini-game, it’s the entire game. In our RPGs combat is the entire game and they add a crafting mini-game off to the side.

    I respectfully disagree; I believe that in current MMO RPGs the Tamagotchi-esque character development is the game, and that combat is a mini-game within that framework, with crafting being another mini-game. Combat is the primary mini-game, I’ll grant you.

    I don’t think this rules-out the fact that one could have a Tamagotchi-like game applied to mounts. Indeed, mounts could level-up with care and use, could be used in combat, and could be equipped with items to improve their abilities, i.e. they could become a secondary character, and more than just a travel mechanism.

    However, whether that would actually add to one’s immersion in a game is certainly open to debate, and probably, like all such things, highly subjective.

    Like

  11. “As for exploring day/night, LOTRO does that with a handful of night-only quests and you should listen to all the whining…”

    Yes, but as with all other things gaming-related 🙂 you can’t judge overall acceptance by the whining, since the people who are content don’t feel the need to constantly vocalize it.

    I’d also speculate, and this *is* pure speculation on my part, that people whine about those quests because they are so unexpected. If “time of day” related quests were common, people wouldn’t get so tripped up over them. And you could make them less cut and dried than waiting for the ghost to pop in Bree… say you had a “Hunt 10 bats” quest. In the day time, you’d have to find a cave where they went to roost, but at night you’d find them out and about hunting.

    That’s kind of a boring example because you’re still hunting bats… but the same could be true for hunting vampires.

    Anyway…

    Coincidentally, I was reading an article on the soon-to-be-released Darkfall Online, and what I read all sounded very UO like. Full PvP, your corpse is lootable if you’re killed, and so on. It’ll be interesting to see how it is received, but for their sake I hope they’re economic model supports having a small, dedicated audience, because I can’t see it being a mega-hit in today’s MMO climate.

    I mean, I speak fondly of UO…but you’ll notice I don’t still play it. 🙂 When it was the only game in town it was awesome, but it was a game that you had to really devote yourself to fulltime.

    Like

  12. One of the problems I have with Darkfall is that it appears to be trying to be UO3D, built by fans of the old game without actually learning from its mistakes. [Disclaimer of not following the game, etc. so could be wildly wrong on that.]

    The other is the community. Some of the concepts of Darkfall is very appealing to me. However the vocal community is enough to make me not want to play in that world and have to tolerate them.

    And I’m with you on the population. I’d say it will settle right around where UO is today: 75K-ish. They claim their servers can handle 10K concurrent users so hopefully they won’t need many servers to keep their costs down.

    I would love if developers would take Vanguard’s philosophy of gaming spheres and do it right. Make crafting, adventuring, diplomacy/faction, etc. equally important and their own separate mini-game without putting emphasis on one single sphere. If each sphere is fully developed the players will have the freedom to choose how they utilize each sphere.

    Melmoth’s mention of leveling mounts made me think of an F2P game I’m playing where mounts do level simply by riding them. Each level gives them more HP so they can take more hits before being dismounted.

    Like

  13. Mount&Blade? If so, I’m going to have to check it out. Lots of people seem to be getting in to that one at the moment.

    Couldn’t agree with you more with regards to Darkfall, and Vanguard’s gaming spheres.

    Like

  14. I’m playing Mount & Blade. So is Crimson Starfire and Ardwulf… but I don’t think that’s what Scott is talking about, since M&B is a single player game

    Like

  15. Good lord, I really must pay more attention, I thought it was an online multiplayer game! I’ll hand in my gamer card on the way out.

    Like

  16. Yeah I saw everyone talking about M&B recently too but it’s just a single-player… thing… so meh not interested.

    Just for the opposite side of that particular sentiment, I picked up Fallout 3 a few minutes ago… LOL

    Like

  17. @ Melmoth — you’ll just get yer coat.

    I really need to see if I can find the Fast Show on YouTube or something, I’m jonesing.

    /tangent off

    Like

  18. Pingback: Greatly exaggerated « Stylish Corpse·

  19. I’ve given immersion a lot of thought and I’ve come up with three different aspects as they relate to MMORPGs: GAME, STORY and REALITY and the balance between them.

    Examples:DEATH: If I die in real life (REALITY) I’m gone, forever! In (STORY) *fantasy stories* I may find redemption and be raised from the dead by a cleric or something to that effect. But after the third, fourth, fifth time you would think the gods would consider me a hassle and decide to just take me into their bosom where I shan’t bother them any longer. (GAME) Permanent death *though a cool concept* would definately affect subscriptions. So, death and rezzes are a GAME concept and really don’t follow STORY or REALITY.

    CRAFTING: In (REALITY) how long does it really take to make a steel sword? Days, weeks even. (GAME) Click button sword appears in bag. (STORY/GAME) A brief time hopefully with a cool animation of your character pounding on a anvil accompanied by the sounds of ringing metal and then sword appears in bag.

    Let’s put it in a different perspective. Growing up I lived my childhood inside my head exploring fanatsy worlds. I often thought how cool it would be to fall asleep and wake up in said fantasy worlds. Now, I’m an adult. I’m more aware of reality.

    So I ask, what would happen if I fell asleep and woke up in my favorite fanatasy world now? A world without dentists, cheetoes, cars, internet, my favorite computer chair. In respect to MMORPGs I raise the question: At what point would the reality and immersion have to stop before the game became a drudgery. “I rolled a blacksmith as my main. All I do online is pound steel but I have to feed my wife and 12 kids so I can’t go on an adventure with you, sorry.” or imagine if, to complete a quest, you had to walk your character from one end of the continent to the next in real time. “Well, I had this quest but after walking for 10 weeks of real time, not to mention having to camp every night and watch my toon sleep next to the camp fire, I gave up and went back to playing game X.” There is a balance of REALITY, STORY and GAME and each MMORPG is balanced differently. You just have to find the one thats balanced the way you like.

    -Nosmo King (…pulls his 800 pound horse out of his backpack and rides off into the sunset)

    Like

Comments are closed.